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Advantages of Ogrr and mBTC over d2jsp and FG

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#1  Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:49 pm
Hey, first of all thank you for all the support we've gotten these last weeks!

I understand that most of you new users don't really know what Bitcoins are, or why you should use them over d2jsp Forum Gold, and you probably don't really know why using Ogrr would be better than d2jsp or other trading forums.

So let's start with d2jsp:
d2jsp is a great community and trading nexus in many ways and it has really been the only place for trading Diablo 2 for many years and there haven't really been any alternatives to that at all other than a few short-lived forums built up pretty much around their own forum currency to earn $ and they've all failed.

The only reason to why d2jsp has succeeded so well is just because there haven’t been any good alternatives to it at all and that is what we're trying to create here.

Some information about d2jsp:
  • njaguar has earned millions of $ on selling Forum Gold
  • The user at the bottom of the "Donors (Top 50)" has donated over 9000$.
  • To be able to keep the worth of Forum Gold stable he has to get Forum Gold out of the system.
  • Creating a game like Ladder Slasher and take a few % FG per trade done there isn't enough.
  • Users buying Guilds and features aren’t enough.
  • Users paying 5 FG per search isn't enough (this is for searching in one of the sub-forums).
  • The forum gold it costs to buy features like Orbs, Media Slots and Friend Slots just simply doesn't cut it either.
  • njaguar locks users accounts for no reason at all, top donors or not, he simply doesn't care and it seems to be the only way he can keep the worth of Forum Gold.

This is just some minor information and just looking at it you can tell a lot about d2jsp:
njaguar has earned millions of dollars on d2jsp but he's not fair to his users at all.
For years he's been locking users with a lot of Forum Gold for bullshit reasons or no reason at all simply to get gold out from the system,
that will most likely never change because there is no other way for him to control the worth of Forum Gold.

I believe he's probably fond of the black market trading of Forum Gold because in his eyes it actually justifies getting tons of Forum Gold out of the system and it's bullshit.

d2jsp and Forum Gold has been superior to any other way of trading for years but it's really not good at all and it's time for a change, time for users to control and own their currency with the ability to cash it out and do whatever they want with it.

Basic information about Bitcoin (mBTC) and the use of it on Ogrr:

I promise you, you'll get the hang of it! ;)

On Ogrr we use a currency that already exists outside of Ogrr and it's just integrated to our site and used instead of Forum Gold.
A member of Ogrr can buy Bitcoins from various different places online vs $/Euro or whatever currency that is used in their country and simply add it to their Ogrr account: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Buying_bitcoins

You can also withdraw the Bitcoins you've added to your account here or earned from selling items on Ogrr WTF!?
njaguar owns all of the Forum Gold on d2jsp and does what he wants with it, every user of Ogrr own their own currency and may do exactly what they want with it.


So let's try a story version of this:


Mike on d2jsp:

Mike joins d2jsp
- sells items he's earn on Runescape and Diablo vs Forum Gold
- tries out an Ipad a friend bought and decides to save up for one of his own
- logs on to his d2jsp account and realizes he has more Forum Gold than what he could have use for
- decides to sell some of his Forum Gold on another trading forum for $ and take the risk breaking the d2jsp rules thinking "fuck it, I got the Forum Gold for my stuff"
- Finds a user named Carl that already has 45.000 Forum Gold but decides to buy 5000 more from Mike (He's just saving up for the Diablo 3 release)
- Mike sells 5.000 Forum Gold vs xxx $ to Carl
- Both of their accounts are locked within a few hours and njaguar gets 50.000 Forum Gold out of the system.


No Ipad for Mike and Carl is a pissed off teenager ready to create hell on earth


Sarah on Ogrr

Sarah joins Ogrr
- sells some Runescape items she's earned over years of playing Runescape vs mBTC
- quits Runescape and starts Diablo 2
- buys Diablo 2 items with the mBTC earned from the Runescape items and now got an awesome Hammerdin
- spends night after night killing Mephisto, Baal and trading items she doesn't need vs mBTC
- listens to her friend Mike going on all day long about an Ipad he's planning to buy
- withdraws some of the mBTC she's earned by selling Diablo 2 items on Ogrr to a Bitcoin-exchange and sells them vs dollar
- logs on to Apple.com and orders an Ipad

Saga becomes the world champion of Temple Run on her Ipad
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#2  Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:59 pm
Great thread & summary of how bitcoin's integrated with Ogrr will work for the better of every user.
This community will blow up once users know about this great forum & site.

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#3  Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:09 pm
Awesome explanation!

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#4  Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:11 pm
well said. I hope people understand the superiority of ogrr soon
-lgndr

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#5  Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:43 pm
This should be stickied if it isn't already :)

Very well explained.

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#6  Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:19 pm
this is very good information!!!
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#7  Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:18 am
Fyi, I posted this to r/Bitcoin because it's an interesting read: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/q36dh/advantages_of_bitcoin_vs_a_centrally_controlled/
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#8  Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:00 am
i stopped using jsp last year, was tired of the extreme rules, and unnecessary bans, locks, and warns!

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#9  Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:11 am
So is Ogrr constantly generating more and more bitcoins to payout people who buy them on other sites?
and also are the bitcoins displayed on here part of the transaction history on blockexplorer?
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#10  Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:16 am
Jamie wrote:So is Ogrr constantly generating more and more bitcoins to payout people who buy them on other sites?
and also are the bitcoins displayed on here part of the transaction history on blockexplorer?


I think that Jesse and his team have designated a certain amount to cover all of the payouts ( which is the first 1000 users for 10 post & the first 1000 users for the 10 invites ) which would be 2000 x Bitcoins = $4.5usd = 9k usd ? roughly. So thats how they will cash out the Bitcoins i would assume. If anyone buys bitcoins from other sites = they have to get them onto this site = there not paying for it the user is who brings them in
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#11  Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:22 am
Templar wrote:
Jamie wrote:So is Ogrr constantly generating more and more bitcoins to payout people who buy them on other sites?
and also are the bitcoins displayed on here part of the transaction history on blockexplorer?


I think that Jesse and his team have designated a certain amount to cover all of the payouts ( which is the first 1000 users for 10 post & the first 1000 users for the 10 invites ) which would be 2000 x Bitcoins = $4.5usd = 9k usd ? roughly. So thats how they will cash out the Bitcoins i would assume. If anyone buys bitcoins from other sites = they have to get them onto this site = there not paying for it the user is who brings them in


I guess what I would like to know is if they are a part of transaction history on blockexplorer or if the bitcoins on here are just numbers generated but will have the same worth as btc or mbtc and also how are the bitcoins on here integrated with the current bitcoin economy
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#12  Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:27 am
Jamie wrote:
Templar wrote:
Jamie wrote:So is Ogrr constantly generating more and more bitcoins to payout people who buy them on other sites?
and also are the bitcoins displayed on here part of the transaction history on blockexplorer?


I think that Jesse and his team have designated a certain amount to cover all of the payouts ( which is the first 1000 users for 10 post & the first 1000 users for the 10 invites ) which would be 2000 x Bitcoins = $4.5usd = 9k usd ? roughly. So thats how they will cash out the Bitcoins i would assume. If anyone buys bitcoins from other sites = they have to get them onto this site = there not paying for it the user is who brings them in


I guess what I would like to know is if they are a part of transaction history on blockexplorer or if the bitcoins on here are just numbers generated but will have the same worth as btc or mbtc and also how are the bitcoins on here integrated with the current bitcoin economy


My guess is that the admins own the bitcoins on the site. That have been mined themselves or brought/traded through other means.
If u have seen jesses for sale thread viewtopic.php?f=74&t=1139

Then mining those coins is probably how they were able to start this site up with the 1 bitcoin for the first 1000 ppl with 10 posts scheme. Thats about 4000US in promotion.

They can't generate bitcoins as far as im aware.

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#13  Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:36 am
NZKdaj wrote:My guess is that the admins own the bitcoins on the site. That have been mined themselves or brought/traded through other means.
If u have seen jesses for sale thread viewtopic.php?f=74&t=1139

Then mining those coins is probably how they were able to start this site up with the 1 bitcoin for the first 1000 ppl with 10 posts scheme. Thats about 4000US in promotion.

They can't generate bitcoins as far as im aware.


I know that they probably have sufficient funds to fund it. I'm just wondering whether the bitcoins on here are actually bitcoins or just numbers representing bitcoins. In order to be an actual bitcoin it has to be in the transaction history and tracked. That's the reason it makes it so secure and can't be reversed
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#14  Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:36 am
Jamie wrote:I know that they probably have sufficient funds to fund it. I'm just wondering whether the bitcoins on here are actually bitcoins or just numbers representing bitcoins. In order to be an actual bitcoin it has to be in the transaction history and tracked. That's the reason it makes it so secure and can't be reversed

Bitcoins stored with Ogrr are likely entries in their forum database but they should be backed by the full amount of Bitcoins sitting in one of the admin's wallets. You should be able to withdraw any mBTC on your account relatively easily when you need them.

There is of course nothing stopping you from trading for Bitcoins offsite by sending coins to an address and having that payment transaction appear in the blockchain. If there is a benefit to doing it on Ogrr, it's that the transfer is part of the feedback process and others can see your balance. It also avoids people having to know a whole lot about Bitcoin before making a transaction.

The major difference from Forum Gold is that Bitcoin, once withdrawn, can be converted to any number of international currencies. Or without exchange it can be used to pay for hosting, snacks, and a wider variety other goods and services every day. This means with Ogrr you're closer than ever to being able to making a living from by acquiring and trading the items/accounts/services available here.
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#15  Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:49 am
Great explanation of this. And this seems like a much better site than d2jsp.org.

I will be sticking around for sure

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#16  Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:52 am
I think I already love this site.

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#17  Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:02 am
Jamie wrote:
NZKdaj wrote:My guess is that the admins own the bitcoins on the site. That have been mined themselves or brought/traded through other means.
If u have seen jesses for sale thread viewtopic.php?f=74&t=1139

Then mining those coins is probably how they were able to start this site up with the 1 bitcoin for the first 1000 ppl with 10 posts scheme. Thats about 4000US in promotion.

They can't generate bitcoins as far as im aware.


I know that they probably have sufficient funds to fund it. I'm just wondering whether the bitcoins on here are actually bitcoins or just numbers representing bitcoins. In order to be an actual bitcoin it has to be in the transaction history and tracked. That's the reason it makes it so secure and can't be reversed


Coins stored here are not kept in individual wallets for each user at this time. We've essentially got one big wallet for real Bitcoins and the balances everyone has on this site are simply numbers in a database, and when you send mBTC to another user, we're just moving numbers around so the transaction happens instantly, it does not appear in the blockchain, and you do not have to wait for confirmations. The only time a transaction will appear in the blockchain is when someone makes a Bitcoin depsoit or withdrawal to/from Ogrr. In the future, we'd like to do something like give each user a real Bitcoin address so that at any time their funds can be verified.

You are welcome to arrange your trades on this site in any currency you wish, in any way you wish... we just offer a few advantages if the trade goes through our mBTC system, like being able to leave feedback. If you want to do external wallet to external wallet so that Ogrr never touches your Bitcoins, that's totally fine.

The 1000 Bitcoins we're giving away were mined by us with those 25 rigs I just sold in the other forum: viewtopic.php?f=74&t=1139
But, we've got a lot more Bitcoins than that, not that it really matters.. as people deposit Bitcoins in to their Ogrr accounts, we'll get more and those will be set aside, and as long as those coins are never touched, we'll always be able to cash everybody out without dipping in to our own stash.

Since it wouldn't be too hard for someone to add up all the balances of each user and see how much Bitcoin total is in the system, we could from time to time send a Bitcoin transfer through the Bitcoin system, which would be visible in the blockchain, to prove that we still have all the Bitcoins.

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#18  Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:15 am
jesse wrote:
Jamie wrote:
NZKdaj wrote:My guess is that the admins own the bitcoins on the site. That have been mined themselves or brought/traded through other means.
If u have seen jesses for sale thread viewtopic.php?f=74&t=1139

Then mining those coins is probably how they were able to start this site up with the 1 bitcoin for the first 1000 ppl with 10 posts scheme. Thats about 4000US in promotion.

They can't generate bitcoins as far as im aware.


I know that they probably have sufficient funds to fund it. I'm just wondering whether the bitcoins on here are actually bitcoins or just numbers representing bitcoins. In order to be an actual bitcoin it has to be in the transaction history and tracked. That's the reason it makes it so secure and can't be reversed


Coins stored here are not kept in individual wallets for each user at this time. We've essentially got one big wallet for real Bitcoins and the balances everyone has on this site are simply numbers in a database, and when you send mBTC to another user, we're just moving numbers around so the transaction happens instantly, it does not appear in the blockchain, and you do not have to wait for confirmations. The only time a transaction will appear in the blockchain is when someone makes a Bitcoin depsoit or withdrawal to/from Ogrr. In the future, we'd like to do something like give each user a real Bitcoin address so that at any time their funds can be verified.

The 1000 Bitcoins we're giving away were mined by us with those 25 rigs I just sold in the other forum: viewtopic.php?f=74&t=1139
But, we've got a lot more Bitcoins than that, not that it really matters.. as people deposit Bitcoins in to their Ogrr accounts, we'll get more and those will be set aside, and as long as those coins are never touched, we'll always be able to cash everybody out without dipping in to our own stash.

Since it wouldn't be too hard for someone to add up all the balances of each user and see how much Bitcoin total is in the system, we could from time to time send a Bitcoin transfer through the Bitcoin system, which would be visible in the blockchain, to prove that we still have all the Bitcoins.


Okay. I was just wondering. I was sure you had enough to cover it and the fact that in order to put bitcoins on ogrr you would have to send them from a wallet to yours so that would mean they are actually in the system as real bitcoins, and I'm pretty sure you wouldn't give away something you didn't have. Also I like the idea of having it seperate from the blockchain so that the transactions are instant. I guess I was just worried that the bitcoins on here could be manipulated and created just as what Paul did on his site (although I would never accuse you of manipulating or anything.)

I'm just the sort of person that is afraid of admins and people in power over you in certain places / websites that become corrupt. I guess that's what happens when you use jsp for a long time.
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#19  Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:45 am
I think the main advantage is Ogrr doesn't lock/ban your btc/account like d2jsp does. It's always been a nightmare if you have some fg at d2jsp that you wake up with your account/fg locked/banned and nfag wouldn't do anything to help you.

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#20  Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:22 pm
Jamie wrote:Okay. I was just wondering. I was sure you had enough to cover it and the fact that in order to put bitcoins on ogrr you would have to send them from a wallet to yours so that would mean they are actually in the system as real bitcoins, and I'm pretty sure you wouldn't give away something you didn't have. Also I like the idea of having it seperate from the blockchain so that the transactions are instant. I guess I was just worried that the bitcoins on here could be manipulated and created just as what Paul did on his site (although I would never accuse you of manipulating or anything.)

I'm just the sort of person that is afraid of admins and people in power over you in certain places / websites that become corrupt. I guess that's what happens when you use jsp for a long time.

Truthfully I considered this issue when first joining ogrr. In the end of course it comes down to trust. Given the large personal investments, long professional history, and solid reputation of the people involved, they have my trust.
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#21  Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:32 pm
Well said nice!
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#22  Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:01 am
Great post, much needed, but I think it could use a better form of presentation. A newcomer would likely be familiar with FG and we want him to grasp the clear advantages immediately, without having him read and think a lot.
It could be a highlighted 1-sentence summary like this:

Bitcoins (mBTC) as opposed to Forum Gold aren't created and owned by the forum owner and aren't bound to the forum, they're an established e-currency that's independent of any organization and you can store, trade and exchange them for real $$$s/Euros outside the forum.

or make a small table comparing basic aspects of both systems, like this (need real formatting, editing and a few more points):

FG _______________VS_________________ mBTC
you don't really own it ___________________ you're the sole owner
many restrictions _______________________ you can do whatever you want with them
you're not allowed to sell it for real $/€ _____ selling for real $/€ is easy thanks to many exchanges
bound to the forum _____________________ exist and are traded also outside of the forum
freely produced by the forum owner ________ limited total quantity, nobody can just make more *mining doesn't make more as the generation rate is fixed
...
etc...

Suddenly it will become clear bitcoins have a lot of advantages and zero disadvantages over FG.

I believe the fact bitcoins can exist outside of the forum, can be stored on your own computer and can be readily sold for major currencies should be emphasized as a f.

You can make people trust you more when you tell them they don't even need to trust you - they always have the option to withdraw and hold larger amounts on their own. For many trust comes with time. They should just be made aware of the clear advantages of this system.

I really hope this site becomes a great success.
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#23  Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:06 am
Specter your first post is a great post :D Donating to you mate.
This is going to be a great site and the advantage's of Ogrr's features far outweigh jsp's or any other forums
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#24  Sat Feb 25, 2012 11:13 am
specter wrote:Great post, much needed, but I think it could use a better form of presentation. A newcomer would likely be familiar with FG and we want him to grasp the clear advantages immediately, without having him read and think a lot.
It could be a highlighted 1-sentence summary like this:

Bitcoins (mBTC) as opposed to Forum Gold aren't created and owned by the forum owner and aren't bound to the forum, they're an established e-currency that's independent of any organization and you can store, trade and exchange them for real $$$s/Euros outside the forum.

or make a small table comparing basic aspects of both systems, like this (need real formatting, editing and a few more points):

FG _______________VS_________________ mBTC
you don't really own it ___________________ you're the sole owner
many restrictions _______________________ you can do whatever you want with them
you're not allowed to sell it for real $/€ _____ selling for real $/€ is easy thanks to many exchanges
bound to the forum _____________________ exist and are traded also outside of the forum
freely produced by the forum owner ________ limited total quantity, nobody can just make more *mining doesn't make more as the generation rate is fixed
...
etc...

Suddenly it will become clear bitcoins have a lot of advantages and zero disadvantages over FG.

I believe the fact bitcoins can exist outside of the forum, can be stored on your own computer and can be readily sold for major currencies should be emphasized as a f.

You can make people trust you more when you tell them they don't even need to trust you - they always have the option to withdraw and hold larger amounts on their own. For many trust comes with time. They should just be made aware of the clear advantages of this system.

I really hope this site becomes a great success.


well stated.
-lgndr

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#25  Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:09 pm
Ogrr is just in the starting phase and we'll need a couple of months to get a lot more site functions and design fixes done.

But I believe that all of you are just looking at the starting phase of a great which progress is a lot faster than d2jsp and not a poor sad project like d3jsp (can't believe anyone uses that site).

And of course the trades on here is now slow compared to d2jsp but I believe it's a good period to test out the site and see what we need to think about and update.

Don't give up on us ;)
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