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Ogrr Pool's Mystery

Strange Numbers on MAXBtc.

Views: 668 Posts: 11

dropt

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#1  Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:55 pm
Anyone have any thoughts on who MaxBTC's mystery miner(s) is/are? Seems like someone has the ability to bring ~115 GH/s online at will. The real strange part is that whoever it is isn't showing up in the top-miners table. Considering the lowest "top-miner" is mining at 2.39 MH/s something doesn't add up. Not to mention there are ~281,000 "other active users". Is there a bot-net pointing at the pool, or what do you think the deal is?

zvsss

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#2  Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:08 pm
It's probably one of those pools where people buy overpriced shares and hope to get lucky.

Xenland

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#3  Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:55 am
It's probably hopping. However I thought DGM is useless for hopping?

zvsss

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#4  Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:49 pm
because their hashing power is so high, it doesn't take long to get past the penalize stage of the scoring system here (a lack of foresight in not making it proportional to one's average speed)

since you get bonuses for longer rounds, it then makes it beneficial for them to pool hop to here on longer rounds

block #56 is an excellent example of this in action

https://www.maxbtc.com/work-payouts?w=56

where you have someone that's been mining the whole rd, vs someone that came in more than half way through

i never get any answers from 'submitting support tickets' or whatever, though.

jesse

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#5  Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:57 am
zvsss wrote:because their hashing power is so high, it doesn't take long to get past the penalize stage of the scoring system here (a lack of foresight in not making it proportional to one's average speed)

since you get bonuses for longer rounds, it then makes it beneficial for them to pool hop to here on longer rounds

block #56 is an excellent example of this in action

https://www.maxbtc.com/work-payouts?w=56

where you have someone that's been mining the whole rd, vs someone that came in more than half way through

i never get any answers from 'submitting support tickets' or whatever, though.


Apologies for not noticing the tickets you submitted. Actually, you're the first person to use the support ticket system! For some reason I didn't get notified about the new ticket and I am trying to figure out why that is right now.

We'll be adding separate notification settings for Namecoin shortly (probably by tomorrow). Great suggestion.

You're dead on about guys with a lot of hashing power having a bit of an advantage in mining (more options) but I don't know that the advantage is unfair. You can hop in and out but your rewards will decay, and you never know when the round will end. We could increase the rate of decay but that'd mean that guys with less hashing power are dinged even more severely for connection hiccups and time out. I don't believe that Meni has directly addressed this but I'd love to get a direct response from him on it: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=39497.0

zvsss

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#6  Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:08 am
I think the decay rate needs to scale dynamically with the pool's hashing rate... i.e. if the hashing rate is 120mhash/s then jumps to 360mhash/s, the decay rate should slow by 3x. The results on something like block 56 should never happen, or at the very least not be so extreme. re: Someone that mines here 24/7 at a near constant hash rate getting less than 50% of someone that arrived late and overall (throughout the entire round) had a lower hashing rate. I guess he was running around 200mhash/s and came in around the 2m mark?... that's just from 15 seconds of eyeballing it... If I spent a few hrs I *might* remember how to make a mathematical equation to find out exactly. =p

I mean, from what I've seen, it looks like it decays over a set # of shares, rather than a set period of time.

(and I like it a lot better when it's 200mhash or less, sigh)

zvsss

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#7  Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:04 am
here it is again:

https://www.maxbtc.com/work-payouts?w=77

where some person jumps in over half way through, contributes 25% more shares then amazingrando and gets over 2x the bitcoins

if not changing how the system itself works, maybe you could change how the bonus is distributed? i guess that's what makes it beneficial to hop here

jesse

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#8  Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:02 pm
zvsss wrote:here it is again:

https://www.maxbtc.com/work-payouts?w=77

where some person jumps in over half way through, contributes 25% more shares then amazingrando and gets over 2x the bitcoins

if not changing how the system itself works, maybe you could change how the bonus is distributed? i guess that's what makes it beneficial to hop here


Are you arguing that the pool should become proportional?

Check out Meni's analysis: https://bitcoil.co.il/pool_analysis.pdf and the thread he had for it: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=32814.20

Meni Rosenfeld wrote:I used to think that the existence of pool-hopping causes non-hoppers to earn, in the worst case, 70% of the normal reward. But I've now added to appendix B a derivation of this result, and it turns out my original model is wrong and it's actually 56.5%, equivalent to a 43.5% fee (and I've now confirmed it by simulation). All the more reason for miners in proportional pools to reconsider.


So, switching to a proportional system would cause legit miners to earn 56.5% of what they'll earn with cheat-proof payouts, like DGM. Sure, there will be rounds where it looks like a big hopper has received an disproportionately large payout, but there are also other rounds where the gamble hasn't paid off so well them, like those 4m share rounds. Higher hash rates for the pool means more blocks solved, lower variance and more even payouts in a shorter period of time. If the pool hoppers didn't join, you'd get a higher payout but it'd take longer to get through the blocks and the variance would be higher. Despite your perception, you're getting a fair deal with DGM whereas with proportional you'd be getting robbed.

I don't see that anything needs fixing but if after reading Meni's analysis you still feel that there is room for improvement, I'm open to suggestions. I think most of the criticism here (which is fine) stems from the transparency and the data we provide you with. If you could see what's happening as clearly at some other pools, you'd be outraged.

LeonX

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#9  Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:28 pm
jesse wrote:
zvsss wrote:here it is again:

https://www.maxbtc.com/work-payouts?w=77

where some person jumps in over half way through, contributes 25% more shares then amazingrando and gets over 2x the bitcoins

if not changing how the system itself works, maybe you could change how the bonus is distributed? i guess that's what makes it beneficial to hop here


Are you arguing that the pool should become proportional?

Check out Meni's analysis: https://bitcoil.co.il/pool_analysis.pdf and the thread he had for it: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=32814.20

Meni Rosenfeld wrote:I used to think that the existence of pool-hopping causes non-hoppers to earn, in the worst case, 70% of the normal reward. But I've now added to appendix B a derivation of this result, and it turns out my original model is wrong and it's actually 56.5%, equivalent to a 43.5% fee (and I've now confirmed it by simulation). All the more reason for miners in proportional pools to reconsider.


So, switching to a proportional system would cause legit miners to earn 56.5% of what they'll earn with cheat-proof payouts, like DGM. Sure, there will be rounds where it looks like a big hopper has received an disproportionately large payout, but there are also other rounds where the gamble hasn't paid off so well them, like those 4m share rounds. Higher hash rates for the pool means more blocks solved, lower variance and more even payouts in a shorter period of time. If the pool hoppers didn't join, you'd get a higher payout but it'd take longer to get through the blocks and the variance would be higher. Despite your perception, you're getting a fair deal with DGM whereas with proportional you'd be getting robbed.

I don't see that anything needs fixing but if after reading Meni's analysis you still feel that there is room for improvement, I'm open to suggestions. I think most of the criticism here (which is fine) stems from the transparency and the data we provide you with. If you could see what's happening as clearly at some other pools, you'd be outraged.


A proportional pool is only good for hoppers who unfairly leech others earnings. Either DGM or a PPS system is 100% hop proof and fair, PROVIDED the decay rate/settings are set properly.

jesse

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#10  Sun Apr 08, 2012 6:57 am
LeonX wrote:A proportional pool is only good for hoppers who unfairly leech others earnings. Either DGM or a PPS system is 100% hop proof and fair, PROVIDED the decay rate/settings are set properly.


Fair is subjective. The current settings will have the shares still be worth something even after 16m shares, which seems like it should be ok under normal conditions. With a pool hopper with a huge hash rate, it doesn't seem fair when the pool hopper gets lucky. We'll be increasing c to 0.15 beginning round 87 and it may help out but when the pool hopper gets lucky, it'll likely always seem unfair no matter what settings are used. If you have any suggestions on the settings, feel free to offer them up.

The pool hoppers should be beneficial for hop-proof pools since they'll help solve blocks faster, thereby lowering variance. You don't make as much per block but the rate of solving them should make up for it and come out to the same amount in the end.

LeonX

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#11  Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:40 am
jesse wrote:
LeonX wrote:A proportional pool is only good for hoppers who unfairly leech others earnings. Either DGM or a PPS system is 100% hop proof and fair, PROVIDED the decay rate/settings are set properly.


Fair is subjective. The current settings will have the shares still be worth something even after 16m shares, which seems like it should be ok under normal conditions. With a pool hopper with a huge hash rate, it doesn't seem fair when the pool hopper gets lucky. We'll be increasing c to 0.15 beginning round 87 and it may help out but when the pool hopper gets lucky, it'll likely always seem unfair no matter what settings are used. If you have any suggestions on the settings, feel free to offer them up.

The pool hoppers should be beneficial for hop-proof pools since they'll help solve blocks faster, thereby lowering variance. You don't make as much per block but the rate of solving them should make up for it and come out to the same amount in the end.

Thanks for the tip - and yes, you do have a point there. Increasing the c will help a bit but not completely when he's lucky. Seems like he's one of those proxy pools like abcpool or clipse's pool as the hash rate is incredibly high.
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